G20: an interview with Sergeant Mark Hayes

After documenting the G20 policing protest in Ottawa last week, I read this article in the Citizen.  After reading that, I thought ‘hey, I would have loved to have spoken with a police officer’.  My way of thinking is that you won’t find out anything if you don’t at least try to ask for it.  So I sent off a letter to the Ottawa Police and I was pleasantly surprised to get a letter from them confirming that they’ve forwarded my request to Sgt Hayes.  And then, he called me.  We discussed the process a bit, he confirmed that he got the green light from his media relations team and also confirmed that he wouldn’t be comfortable with a video interview (most people aren’t).  So I prepared a list of questions and he answered them for me over the phone and through email.

When I contacted the police, I didn’t want to talk about the specifics of what happened in Toronto.  I was taking a larger step back to try to understand the act of protesting and to learn how law enforcement manages large groups of people.  I wanted to know more about what it’s like to police a protest.  What are the rights of protesters?  What are the rights of the police?  I wanted to find a way to bridge the seemingly large information gap between what really happens at protests and what gets reported in the media.  I wanted to dispel some of the myths surrounding policing, especially when it comes to the force used if and when a rally becomes violent.  And I wanted to learn about Sgt Hayes’ experiences – and he confirmed what I already knew: the large majority of protests in Ottawa are peaceful.  I could have asked to speak with the police in Toronto but I wanted to talk to someone locally.  Downtown life in Ottawa is far more quiet than downtown life in Sudbury (that’s a story for another time!) so I figured it would be good way to get acquainted with the police services here.

Sergeant Hayes was a good sport about the interview and he gave me plenty of time to ask question and to ask for further explanation.  Someone asked me if I was satisfied with his answers and I’d say that I am.  He expanded on some points a lot more than I expected him to.  Besides, a lot of us have this idea that police officers can’t say much about anything related to policing but in this case, it was certainly not true.  He was very forthcoming and I appreciated that.

Lastly, I wasn’t expecting to be granted an interview.  I’m just a blogger, after all.  But like I said earlier, you won’t find out if you don’t give it a shot.  I’m glad I did because I learned a lot.  And that’s how things should be – if you have a question, ask that question.  I do it all the time, with the police, politicians, doctors, authors, musicians, actors – never let someone intimidate you.  You might be surprised to learn how many people will gladly share their knowledge with you if you express interest in what they do or who they are – even if you don’t agree with them.  Besides, you’re not learning very much if you only limit your conversations to people you know, people you like or people you always agree with.

1.  I’ve read articles in The National Post and The Toronto Star about protesters being charged with “obstruction” or “mischief” or “breaching the peace”.  What do these charges mean?

I recommend that a person should always refer to the Criminal code but I’ll offer some general comments.  In regards to “obstruction”, obstruction is not really a charge – “obstructing a police officer” is probably the charge that was laid upon them.  Here’s a day to day policing example – there’s a crime scene and a police officer tries to investigate it and a crowd comes forward and starts interfering and not letting the police obtain the evidence.  So the police officer gets people to try to move back and they don’t then it’s obstructing the police.  It’s not allowing police officers to lawfully execute their duty.

Mischief is section 430.  There are different kinds of mischief.  It’s also causing damage to property – throwing a rock through a school window, graffiti , keying a car, for example.  But it can also be not allowing someone to lawfully enjoy their property or business – let’s say you’re protestng the quality of the food at a fast food restaurant and you don’t let people go in and eat there, you’re interfering, you’re not allowing the restaurant to continue to do business.

Breach of the peace is section 30: it’s not a charge. Let’s say outside a bar, a guy comes out and wants to fight another person but the other party isn’t interested – the guy trying to start the fight can be arrested for wanting to start a fight, for breaching the peace.  We don’t like to use it as a police service because it’s toothless, and from a liability perspective it’s always better to lay a charge after an investigation is conducted.  But yes, you can arrest without charging.

2.  If I’m new to protesting, and I don’t want to get in trouble with the police, how do I know if I’m about to breach the peace – is it loudness, is it excessive noise, the nature of the words being yelled out, would it be based on my actions or how I’m dressed, etc?

We have protests virtually every week in the city.  Sometimes 12-15000 people, for example the pro-lifers and they protest peacefully and nobody is arrested. And then there are counter-protests to the Pro-Life ones too.  But they’re always peaceful.  Excessive noise tends to not be an issue but words being yelled could be.  Swearing may be considered causing a disturbance. If you’re dropping f-bombs around kids in a park for example.  Yelling F-the police at a police station could offend some passers-by but the charge is rarely laid.  But noise can be an issue sometimes if there are a lot of complaints in the neighborhood.  For example the Tamil protests – the police didn’t interfere untl they got complaints from office builings nearby.  We asked them not to use the loud speakers and they complied.

It’s all about your actions: If you smash a window, or throw paint at a building or damage a car, you may be arrested.

It’s never about what you’re wearing.  You can disguise yourself unless you are going to commit a criminal offence.

In Ontario, any time a police officer uses force they have to be able to justify it.  As an example, I go to arrest someone who is much larger than me and I try to arrest him and he tells me that I have to pull him out of there.  But I’m smaller so I don’t want to get in a fight with him so I use pepper spray to blind him so I can arrest him safely.

Another example, there’s a young guy at a schoool that I need to arrest and I use my hands to cuff him but I wouldn’t be justified in pepper spraying him, too.

It’s usually the commander’s decision (on the ground or in the command post)  as to what the treshold will be.  Commander decides where the line is and if they go further then the use of force may be required.  Sometimes the decision is spontaneous especially if an event becomes violent.

Sometimes it comes down to previous behaviour – so if a group is making their way a few blocks into a peaceful group, you might see tear gas being used because that violent group has injured officers a few blocks ago or caused damage to property.  Violent protesters sometimes infiltrate peaceful groups and then it looks like the police are tear gasing innocent people.

I have even seen peaceful protesters harbor the more violent ones and even interfere in the arrests of the non-peaceful protesters.

Depends on decisions made by command – every protest is different and the dynamic of an event can change in minutes.

As much force as is justified by the police officer or the commander.  For example, it would be tough for me to justify pushing away a 13 year old girl with my stick but a smaller police woman might be justified in pepper spraying a larger 22 year old male.

We’re human and we have to go through a full range of human emotions too but we still have to stay within our bounds of justified force.

Police officers make decisions in a second or two, sometimes life and death decisions, that are reviewed for weeks and months using video tape and witness accounts to determine whether the officer was justified.

Don’t become part of the event if you just want to document it.  The police may tell the media to move back so they can execute their actions, whether it’s opening a street or arresting someone or getting first aid but some media or people who just want to document the event sometimes don’t listen to the police; they get too involved in the event.

If you’re going to protest, then define your objective personally as a protester.  And what’s your group objective and can you do it within the laws of the land?

We encourage groups in Ottawa who want to protest to get in touch with the city and they issue a permit and it’s a process to notify the city partners that there will be an event. The fire service and paramedics are notified, OC Transpo is notified and so are the police.  The police help out, we close the streets, we provide safety.

Always respect the requests of the police.  Inform yourself about the law and the city by-laws before attending a protest.

For the most part, protests in Ottawa aren’t violent. I would advise them to respect the rights of people participating in the protest and try to facilitate the event for them so it’s as safe as possible.  But then we also have to be aware of the rights of others.

Let’s say they protest in front of a building downtown, and they block the parking garage, we have to enforce the building occupant’s’ rights and the protester’s rights.

No, there’s a unit of 70 officers who are trained in riot response and crowd control.  Most protests in Ottawa don’t use crowd control officers.  I’m not trained in crowd control but my unit, special events, is always there.  We look after all special events in the city from Canada Day to race weekend to the Hope beach volleyball tournament and protests, presidential visits, etc.  We also work with RCMP officers sometimes.  Same with the RCMP who look after protests, they’re not crowd control officers.

Verbal communication is always first.

We call and talk with the protest organizers beforehand and at most events that are going badly, the police will always do the best they can verbally first.  For example, the police in Toronto used the word “Move” constantly because they wanted people to move.

In regards to the protest in front of the police station here in Ottawa on Wednesday, I was trying to engage in coversation but the people at the police station were very anti-police.  I have a document that helps people that are protesting in regards to our role and to remind them to adhere to the law.

In the end, we gain the protesters’ respect by being flexible in some cases, like large protests and letting them march down streets keeping in mind that the event is also depriving citizens of the city access to the streets.

No, they’ve been around for a long time.  And they protested here almost ten years ago, there were some arrests made at the time.  When they take it upon themselves to incite violence, it takes away from the message of the peaceful groups.  Look at you, you’re having to get info from me on policing and violence instead of finding out info on why the protesters were protesting against the G20.  The other groups don’t get the attention that they want.

The politicians and delegates from other countries only see the violent stuff too because the violence is what is playing on TV, unfortunately the real message doesn’t get through.

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Related posts:

1. An interview with a G20 protester
2. G20: the quest to understand continues
3. More video footage of the G20 rally in Ottawa
4. G20: A Torontonian’s story of detainment
5. The G20 protests: Police brutality or proper crowd control?